lds church multiple probations

Where is the fairness in that? 13:38. Besides the Laub's record of JS' comment on the Holy Ghost in his summary of the Sermon on the Grove, there is an additional JS comment recorded by Franklin D. Richards in August, 1843, not that long before the King Follett Sermon. various sects of Christianity as a true and practical doctrine, as evidenced by Also, I defer to board rules and won't discuss the specifics of the endowment, but there is a very strong implication in there that, at the very least, resurrected beings can shed their resurrected forms somehow and experience another mortal probation. The views expressed herein belong to the authors only and do not represent official doctrine for any church. Whatever the case, I am certain that the most important factor about what relationships will look like in the eternities is agency. I have not ever been constrained by The Spirit to speak in ways that invite others to look to me for the answers that must only come from Father. their state became a state of probation, 2 Ne. It is hard to feel like you live in a closet and that church has been a lonely experience at times. Promised wives, seed without number, be full partaker with Abraham, Isaac., and Jacob. Thomas asks if Zulema, Melanie Gibb, Lori were "very active" in the LDS Church. Hallelujah! A looser neoPlatonism is more defensible both because it actually was in pretty widespread belief but also because we can trace phraseology from actual neoplatonic translations of the early 19th century. I do not believe I am alone in these sentiments. Should you want a space where you can harangue, belittle, mock, and incite people to contention for their deeply held, sacred beliefs then by all means create some forums with your own rules. Some say that they dont believe in do overs. I dont feel that explanation is accurate or complete. 2:307 or TPJS, pp. The answers are there if you seek them from the Lord and in His timing. When I have read the account where the church leaders during the Saviors time were asking him if he were Jeremiah or some other great prophet, that never made sense to me until after reading your book, then it made perfect sense to me. I disagree, believe that most LDS believe as I do, that Eternal Lives means eternal increase and would like to address that in this position paper. People that I still feel the spirit about, so I have to pinch myself too, haha. Thanks for commenting. My friend Julie and I have discussed this doctrine openly on podcasts, and I have written about it on my personal blog. My second Temple Marriage was to a man who had spiritual gifts, such as seeing, hearing, and speaking to those beyond the veil. With this possible equivalency between Micheal and the Holy Ghost in mind and JS' probable belief that all were to serve as Holy Ghosts prior to being Christs, JS likely believed the Nauvoo endowment was a representation of one stage of what each heir of the celestial kingdom was to pass through in their climb up the ladder of exaltation. I dont necessarily have all the answers there. Thank you for bringing it out of obscurity. "sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom (glory)." One lifetime and you are done feels like temporary progression. I want to move forward and progress to the next grade. I learned long ago to stay quiet in Sunday school. I know you and Julie Row are Great tools in the Lords hand in this last days. Thank you Eric, Greg and Julie for your Multiple Probations book, essays and podcasts of supporting scripture and history. How can eternal progression happen in one lifetime on this earth. Details mapped state by state. If youve not yet read Angie Fenimores book Beyond the Darkness, I highly recommend it. Come what may; I believe what I believe, and if a mans belief, though strange, is cause for punishment or ridicule from anyone, which is the greater sin? Now of course I think Brigham came to understand it the way you suggest. And even if a lot of words were taken out of the scriptures, the dynamic is still there Greg pointed out another of these natural and likely divine reminders and shadows to me, in the daily rising and setting of the sun. Some parts of it make sense, but Ive never wanted to think too deeply about it because it made me feel such sadness to think I would be reborn somewhere else and lose my husband and kids, if they were to go somewhere else. Despite the comments and quoted references that say Joseph taught reincarnation, I do not see any of his doctrine that teaches it. That this doctrine will promote casualness and laziness. That actually seems more admirable to me - that Jesus himself "became" who he was through 1000's of lifetimes of progression and trial and error, just like the rest of us. Thank you for the clarity youre bringing to this doctrine. In other words I don't believe this theology, andI'm not recommending beliefs or anything along those lines. 2. He was the first director of Religious Studies in the college administration. But what is meant spiritually can be read in a physical way too. I can only answer that through study, prayer, fasting, and a fair amount of grief, I have paid the price to know. And as you mention that we are progressing to good or evil with every new morning the words of the philosopher Heidegger come into my mind. As it is now, one could easily conclude God respects persons, because some of us clearly get benefits others never had. Let the comments, insights, and debate ensue! It answers many of my questions, How could a god (Lucifer) fall from grace, how could the Savior become who he was in one lifetime, how could I ever make it to the celestial kingdom if my partner wasnt willing to live the gospel. It's kind of like how in our times people will say stuff like, "What if the Holy Ghost is Heavenly Mother?" Laub wrote, "For we are to go from glory to glory and as one is raised to a higher, so the next under him may take his degree and so to take the exaltation through the regular channel. My understanding is that much of the MMP arose out of the infusion of spiritualism in Utah as Saints primarily from England immigrated. WHY ONE of my sons and I have always said we CAME here with a testimony finally clicked and I feel so blessed because it isnt that easy for some to believe. Essentially, we are private individuals freely exercising the right to discuss doctrinal opinions, and to bear witness of things we feel to be true. Cristina Rosetti says there are groups of Mormon fundamentalists who believe in multiple probations, living several lives to reach exaltation. But allow me to tell you you may expect an eternity of cats, that have not yet escaped from the bag " BRIGHAM YOUNG, 1853. 33:9. this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare, Alma 12:24. a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God, Alma 42:4. your days of probation are past, Hel. Your recent podcasts and inspired book, Multiple Probations, also shed so much light on this topic and are the sources of which I seek to learn more. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. 44 Wherefore, he saves ALL EXCEPT THEMthey shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. and the Sacrament the repetition of the covenant.. every Sunday we do the act of dying and be born again as a small little glimps of that path of multiple probations. God bless you. could not look upon God, except hisgloryshould come upon me, and I and Eve could not know good from evil without partaking of both, which is Joseph Smith and Multiple Mortal Probations, Apologetics, Law (not licensed), Reading (Re: 2nd Coming of Late), Writing (Published: Deseret News, SL Trib, New Era, Utah Peace Officer), http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/shirley-maclaine-tells-film-set-stories-line-article-1.2545803. After Moses had a face to face conversation with God, he had We are all blessed! I have done as the Savior Himself declared to ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you (Luke 11:9). You had to have been proven, and earned this Title. I cannot share this knowledge with my family yet because they are so narrow-minded. This thesis explains a bunch of odd data points and suggests a straightforward explanation for the origin of Adam-God. I am a very simple man, not elequent in speech, but my witness of the Truth if it is very strong and it is deep and brings much peace to my heart. Other saints (W.W. Phelps) were blessed to act in Trinities (or Presidencies of worlds). Having been so moved upon in the process of discovery, my friend Greg and I compiled a book called Multiple Probations which is a compilation of interesting history, supportive scriptures, and informative quotes from early authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Although it had to be put on a shelf for a year or so when I first heard about it, the Fringe Doctrine of Multiple Mortal Probations has answered many of my questions about Christ, our Father and Mother, the Noble and Great Ones, the 144,000, the Olympians, Prophets of Old and of Latter Days, and the hope that my friends and family members still have if they choose not to forgive themselves and progress in THIS life! I no longer depended on him to get us there. . Thank you Eric. I first heard briefly the Doctrine of Multiple Probations from Julie Rowe on AVOW an LDS forum, the arguments that followed, all bothered me, I was at that time on my own journey. Libraries. I refer to it as the doctrine of eternal lives which includes the idea of Multiple Mortal Probations. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. When your book came out with Greg I was excited to read it and I did several times. That was a Wow moment! to do for Him in the past is a great motivator for similarly serving Him in the Thanks for sharing Eric! despite my human weakness. [a] The Triumph and Glory of the Lamb: Doctrine and Covenants 76 in Its Historical Context I welcome it! If this were false, then why do I want to strive to be a better disciple of Jesus Christ? . There is deeper meaning in this i wont go into here but i love and admire both of you and the way you both gracefully and meekly bring about true doctrines to light. It is time to live in faith not fear. Shapes and forms can not be seen, but you can hear, sense and feel things Sometimes it seems to be the part of the day where one is in despairBut at that point, where no light can be seen the new day is already beginningSometimes it feels like only the hope of the rising sun (son) will carry you to the first sunbeam And when the sun or the son, as you call it, starts rising there come new possibilities or perspectives along. felt very final[i]. He wrote that Joseph stated, "Now the history of Josephus in Speaking of angels came down and took themselves wives of the daughters of men, See Geneses 6 Chapter 1-2, verses. The strongest argument for an A/G like doctrine in Nauvoo to my eyes is William Law's expose of the potential of God to fall. It boggles my mind the intricacies of the plan and yet how simple it is! May God continue to inspire you and bless you and your family, you are certainly blessings us! I still dont know, or even pretend to know, but I do know that some day I will know and it will make perfect sense to me. Some have said that it has to do with having more children and posterity. So I see first hand the effects of not knowing for myself what is truth vs error. Because LDS leaders sometimes refer to this life, before our death and eventual resurrection, as our "mortal probation," based on the scriptural term "probationary state," Daybell and Vallow call their belief in reincarnation "multiple mortal probations." It also appears to be welcomed and seriously considered among others of The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days ( TLC) is a breakaway sect of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). I do hope this doctrine gives you and your family the hope you need. And now I know that the lower I choose to descend, the more opportunity I will have to ascend higher. "when brother Pratt went back last fall, and published the Revelation concerning the plurality of wives; it was thought there was no other cat to let out. With a larger canon than most religions, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have access to a great many doctrines regarding this topic. On a side note, I tried to present and explain it to my husband and the first thing he said was if it is true, then why would we even need a Savior? This implications started with JS' apparent teaching that God the Father was a Christ during his mortal probation. I know that this is true. In this world of learning I can progress to 6th grade, and then continue on through junior high and high school and graduate. Your email address will not be published. It has been referred to many times in this essay and the comments as doctrine. I shouldn't have looked at this thread so late at night, because now I won't be able to delineate all my thoughts on it. Please know that I am sincere in my question and am not trying to be argumentative or contrary. Praise be to God and the Lamb!! So, I'll just comment that thepoints you bring up nicely illustrate some of the basictension that this theology introduces. 23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. Mormonism today is pretty bland by comparison. At the north end of the FLDS community is an abandoned man-made cave, which is a bunker-like network of tunnels drilled 100-yards deep . I like you, have had a sure witness even as I am writting this that it is true. The LDS church teaches the Pauline principle of many degrees in heaven. Another example comes as I try to understand the meaning of eternal lives. presence which left him fallen to the ground, he was able to declare to Because I do just that I have grown closer to the Savior and because I study scripture, I have more enlightenment and understanding of truth. Thank you for sharing. But both Chad and Rowe have taught that people can essentially. I am he. I'm not going to do anything drastic, but, goodness gracious! How have most LDS people come to learn of the concept of multiple probations? (And there are multiple forms - the form of being human, the form of being Jewish, the form of being a prophet, etc. Cheryl. As I pondered the gravity of that situation seeing the effects of disobedience in other families and in my own I prayed asking Heavenly Father how he could let so many of His children fall and be cast off. Prescendia Huntington Buell (later Kimball) also affirmed her belief in "plural probations," referring to a statement "in confirmation" by her polyandrous husband Joseph Smiths. Some have accused those who believe this doctrine as seeking Those who join are in serious jeopardy of losing their membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and also their eternal life, or exaltation, in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Growing up in the Church, I had the same impressions as you regarding our exaltation. I enjoyed your book very much and reading your essay just now is when I felt enveloped in the calmest, loving peace, and knowing that bore witness that this additional knowledge is indeed true. I am not sure how most people have become exposed to this doctrine. However this is no profound than all cows participating in the form of cowness for Platonists. Her experience helps to counter some of the false beliefs we have about suicide. It's my guess that JS believed that heirs of the Celestial Kingdom would not only serve as Christs, but first they would serve as Holy Ghosts. The only doctrine that Julie specifically mentions her stake president having a problem with is "multiple probations," also called multiple mortal probations. I hold the knowledge sacred, personal to my own covenant to be better than others or have suggested that even if it were a true 9:27. continue in the path until the end of the day of probation, 2 Ne. Only through a Multiple Probation lens can the mercy portion of the Plan of Salvation be realized, as those who choose to ascend to higher kingdoms may receive such an opportunity by going back down in a veiled environment to continue their development and progress as a son or daughter of heavenly parents. I have not ever been constrained by The Spirit to speak in ways that invite others to look to me for the answers that must only come from Father. It is the explanation for why some of those I know and love Something that has always been there but was never realized by me. take it to the Lord and get your own answers. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. Can someone please give me some context for how this idea is considered doctrine? experience, rather than only from a spiritually genetic disposition to be so. I love you all and am thankful for the puzzle piece of truth each of you has to offer in my journey. Here is where my thesis becomes a bit more speculative. Well done, Eric. However, the teaching was probably only explicitly taught to a select few. I have to be honest. the doctrine that has circulated these recent events. I'm not convinced that we know the basis for this train of thought (which of course not all the brethren agreed with) However it's certainly very plausible that it's from these events that Brigham developed his theology - possibly due to ambiguity in the original events. honestly I never thought of this doctrine before I crossed your podcast. You must understand that this is a very poor argument. When I first heard of this I had some doubts, but as I read your words they ring true to my soul and it feels right. thousands) of people I have personally heard from in emails, within the LDS Here's another one from the New Testament people use to support reincarnation: Multiple Mortal Probation Archives - Latter-day Commentary - Last Days - Signs of the Times Multiple Mortal Probation You Have Been Here Before 50 Comments / Doctrine, Mormon culture, Personal Revelation / By Tim Malone / May 3, 2013 Some of my regular readers are going to be mad at me. Jenimarie, I love your experience and witness. ", More significantly, JS' King Follett Sermon suggests that, after the resurrection, each heir to Godhood will eventually serve as a Christ in a mortal probation. Great questions and important ones to ponder on. What I was looking forward to about eternity was the end of suffering. I'm very pleased and honored to have this opportunity to meet and worship with you on this special occasion. I feel motivated to try harder and do better. I thought I had reached the bottom of the rabbit holeI guess it goes deeper still. Interesting, interpretation. We and our partners store and/or access information on a device, such as cookies and process personal data, such as unique identifiers and standard information sent by a device for personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, and audience insights, as well as to develop and improve products. are so advanced in their abilities and gifts from birth, such as music, art, Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. Satan will do everything he can to create doubt and to try and destroy all truth. This life is the time and the day of our probation. Wow. D&C 132:22-25 can easily be interpreted that way: 22For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. I thank you and all of those who are trying to teach about Multiple Probation. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving fathers heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain.. There were many things we did together as a couple and also individually that were in error of the doctrines of God as I have come to understand today. That being said I am personally bound by the admonition given in countless times and ways throughout scripture and most clearly in the Doctrine and Covenants 63: 64. How is it fair or reasonable that in our generation we are also to try to become perfect when our lives only last a mere 70-100 years, and we have to do it at a time when the earth has NEVER been more wicked? a new area shows as that there has to be also an end of another time also a wording of that multiple times.. or multiple probations.. I've read a couple of interesting books on reincarnation/multiple mortal probations and I actually really like the idea. John 9:2 I am finding that this doctrine adds more meaning and understanding to my gospel study. I have felt the Cleansing power of Jesus Christ through His Atonement. Question. a personal encounter with Lucifer. In the years since my witness of the Doctrine of Multiple Probations has increased considerably, I embrace it with eagerness. For others, it has given meaning and Love you all! That just feels like a natural and eternal, and even logical principle. This thesis explains a bunch of odd data points and suggests a straightforward explanation for the origin of Adam-God. Exactly Geri! It is truly beautiful, for how can we grow without those who are willing to play those opposing roles? Serve. In the past I would just move on and hope to receive later knowledge on the meaning. Carston, your witness Of these things strengthens my own. This is a straight forward interpretation of the standard collated version of the sermon most often circulated, but it's made even clearer by George Laub journal summary. Known holdings place as #2 top landowner, very close to #1. Even that though is pretty vague and could easily be taken in terms ofAlma 42:25. Some say this scripture suggeststhat a person might be able to leave the telestial glory experience another life on earth and then return to the telestial glory. peacefully and sweetly. At one point I had to stop believing any thing he said to me of a spiritual nature and this set me on my path to get my own inspiration of the true doctrine. you can express so beautifully what my heart feels, and yet, I lack in ability to express myself! Single Probation Doctrine, and Mortal Experience. One of the most effective teaching tools for me comes idea that a person would live their life on earth and then be permanently I must continually ask myself the question, Who am I to believe that Gods work is dependent on my understanding, teaching and attempting to enlighten the unenlightened? I must also daily keep in mind my own nothingness and utter reliance on The Savior of The World (2 Nephi 4). So for example Quinn's claim that the three degrees of glory arises from the three levels (places) of emanation in Plotinus that was in the culture around Joseph requires that Joseph interpret this in very non-Platonic ways. the merciful God of second chances I have since come to know and believe in. Hi Diane! Multiple Probations: A Lost Doctrine Remembered Aug 11, 2022. by Eric Smith . This implication is emphasized by JS' teachings on identifying angels vs. evil spirits (found in D&C), which he taught on multiple occasions, maybe 5 or 6 times, before and after the Nauvoo endowment had been administered. Then meeting you several years ago in Idaho, i feel our paths have crossed before. They went to the temple quite often and met up with each other there. So. Daybell seems to have emphasized the idea of a Millennial Church that was being formed under his direction: The LDS church is still God's church, but the Church of the Firstborn, this. The Father). That marriage ended in divorce and left me and others in a lot of pain and devastation as to discernment of truth and error, light and darkness, in such gifts. Even Christ talked about this principle to Simon and he also showed with his own example that he was acting under the law of baptism. JS also gave more info about this path to exaltation, which is that the Holy Ghost, the third member in the Godhead, was going to serve as a Christ. Unfortunately, the divine version of the doctrine has not, and may not soon receive the proper attention and audience it deserves. Further, Mormon doctrine asserts that people can become gods. As for the sealing question, I certainly believe that sealings are very important. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints official stance on multiple mortal probations (similar to reincarnation) is that is the doctrine of the devil. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place [the telestial kingdom where they now live], to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.". Erika, these are great questions. I still struggle to understand my place in the eternitys. What a wonderful picture with the sun (son) and your picture seen in the Jewish tradition where a day begins when the darkness sets, it shows something that goes so well along with what you said. And it speaks that our destination after this life, even if we come up short of the Glory of God could not possibly be our final destination for eternity. This doctrine also brings peace to my soul and increases my love and respect for our Heavenly Father and Mother and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Mahalo for your light, your love for truth, and your love for us all! deep questions about the eternities and the knowledge satisfied our questions This concept found me. 24This is eternal livesto know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I find the idea of multiple probations very interesting and am open to it in a well, why not sort of way. widowsmitereport.wordpress. To go no more out finally made sense; Old Souls (and we have have all known them or ARE one ) finally made sense. Given that the content of JS' revelations usually coincide with questions and subjects he is interested in at the time, my best guess is that this interpretation of 88 is probably a stretch. Another George Laub journal entry on JS' Sermon In the Grove seems to confirm that this is how Laub understood it. However, my understanding of this doctrine and how it works creates the opposite reaction. p.104 - see also Documentary History of the Church 2:304-307 I told . I highly recommend Multiple Probations: A Lost Doctrine Remembered by Eric Smith and Greg Christiansen, edited by Julie Rowe. Thank you for your effort, love, kindness, and being free with all the things that you think about and reveal to us. Without these contrasting experiences and emotions, I was once looking at the wickedness of the world and lamenting the fact that so few in this generation appear to be on a path to come to know Christ and therefore lacking what is needed to enter into His kingdom (JST Matt 7:33). This was after a lifetime of belonging to many Christian denominations and the fruits of the plan of salvation were very sweet to me even though i was raised by some in my family to detest the Lds faith and to not believe in Joseph.. as time went on and I progressed in knowledge AND my own spiritual gifts I began to thirst for things I knew must be missing, such as where was the idea of grace?
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